Comments on: Global Warming a Tough Sell this Winter http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/ KQED's multimedia series providing in-depth coverage of climate-related science and policy issues from a California perspective. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:35:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: McKillop http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-875 McKillop Wed, 13 May 2009 20:55:18 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-875 A challenge to AGW proponents: please show me the specific quantitative relationship [or relationships] that displays temperature as a function of CO2. Please also indicate the estimation technique and the nature and source of the data that were used to establish the relationship. A challenge to AGW proponents: please show me the specific quantitative relationship [or relationships] that displays temperature as a function of CO2. Please also indicate the estimation technique and the nature and source of the data that were used to establish the relationship.

]]> By: McKillop http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-725 McKillop Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:16:33 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-725 The exact nature of the model that the so-called scientists on IPCC used to investigate the role of CO2 is not clear. I suspect they assumed beforehand that global warming was due to CO2 and then, instead of treating it as a hypothesis, they estimated a simple relationship between temperature change and CO2. As an experienced modeller, I assure readers that one can always use a bad model to provide a desired result. The exact nature of the model that the so-called scientists on IPCC used to investigate the role of CO2 is not clear. I suspect they assumed beforehand that global warming was due to CO2 and then, instead of treating it as a hypothesis, they estimated a simple relationship between temperature change and CO2. As an experienced modeller, I assure readers that one can always use a bad model to provide a desired result.

]]> By: Craig Miller http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-529 Craig Miller Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:46:02 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-529 Much appreciated, John. I think the more specific we can be in our responses, the more valuable this conversation will be. Much appreciated, John. I think the more specific we can be in our responses, the more valuable this conversation will be.

]]> By: John Mashey http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-523 John Mashey Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:53:05 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-523 Copenhagen Lab = cosmic rays = Svensmark, i.e., as in his book "The Chilling Stars", which has repeatedly been refuted by serious scientists who've looked at it carefully., like: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/10/cosmic-rays-don’t-die-so-easily Svensmark has an idea (not a theory), it keeps getting contradicted by data, like the inconvenient fact that there has been no run-up in Galactic Cosmic Rays. Copenhagen Lab = cosmic rays = Svensmark, i.e., as in his book “The Chilling Stars”, which has repeatedly been refuted by serious scientists who’ve looked at it carefully., like:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/10/cosmic-rays-don’t-die-so-easily

Svensmark has an idea (not a theory), it keeps getting contradicted by data, like the inconvenient fact that there has been no run-up in Galactic Cosmic Rays.

]]> By: Craig Miller http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-496 Craig Miller Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:45:40 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-496 Thanks for the thoughtful annotation, Francis. We'll be airing a feature on the methane issue in the next few weeks (which will be posted here). Most experts I've talked to, while acknowledging methane's much higher potency as a GHG, believe that the far smaller concentrations still make CO2 the "900-lb. gorilla." But Kirk Smith at UC Berkeley thinks that because of that higher potency and because methane's atmospheric life is shorter, we might see more immediate results by attacking the methane issue more aggressively. I think we also need to keep in mind that the IPCC report was not created by "environmental lobbyists," nor was the recent collaboration by 13 federal agencies in the US, which largely corroborates the findings. Thanks for the thoughtful annotation, Francis. We’ll be airing a feature on the methane issue in the next few weeks (which will be posted here). Most experts I’ve talked to, while acknowledging methane’s much higher potency as a GHG, believe that the far smaller concentrations still make CO2 the “900-lb. gorilla.” But Kirk Smith at UC Berkeley thinks that because of that higher potency and because methane’s atmospheric life is shorter, we might see more immediate results by attacking the methane issue more aggressively.
I think we also need to keep in mind that the IPCC report was not created by “environmental lobbyists,” nor was the recent collaboration by 13 federal agencies in the US, which largely corroborates the findings.

]]> By: Francis Manns. Ph.D, P.Geo. (Ontario) http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-491 Francis Manns. Ph.D, P.Geo. (Ontario) Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:29:38 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-491 Keeping in mind that windmills are hazardous to birds, be wary of the unintended consequences of believing and contributing to the all-knowing environmental lobby groups. Water vapour is the most important green house gas followed by methane. The third important greenhouse gas is CO2, and it does not correlate well with global warming or cooling either; in fact, CO2 in the atmosphere trails warming which is clear natural evidence for its well-studied inverse solubility in water: CO2 dissolves in cold water and bubbles out of warm water. The equilibrium in seawater is very high, making seawater a great 'sink'; CO2 is 34 times more soluble in water than air is soluble in water. Correlation is not causation to be sure. The causation has been studied, however, and while the radiation from the sun varies only in the fourth decimal place, the magnetism is awesome. Using a box of air in a Copenhagen lab, physicists traced the growth of clusters of molecules of the kind that build cloud condensation nuclei. These are specks of sulphuric acid on which cloud droplets form. High-energy particles driven through the laboratory ceiling by exploded stars far away in the Galaxy - the cosmic rays - liberate electrons in the air, which help the molecular clusters to form much faster than climate scientists have modeled in the atmosphere. That may explain the link between cosmic rays, cloudiness and climate change. As I understand it, the hypothesis of the Danish National Space Center goes as follows: Quiet sun → reduced magnetic and thermal flux = reduced solar wind → geomagnetic shield drops → galactic cosmic ray flux → more low-level clouds and more snow → more albedo effect (more heat reflected) → colder climate Active sun → enhanced magnetic and thermal flux = solar wind → geomagnetic shield response → less low-level clouds → less albedo (less heat reflected) → warmer climate That is how the bulk of climate change might work, coupled with (modulated by) sunspot peak frequency there are cycles of global warming and cooling like waves in the ocean. When the waves are closely spaced, the planets warm; when the waves are spaced farther apart, the planets cool. The ultimate cause of the solar magnetic cycle may be cyclicity in the Sun-Jupiter centre of gravity. We await more on that. In addition, although the post 60s warming period is over, it has allowed the principal green house gas, water vapour, to kick in with humidity, clouds, rain and snow depending on where you live to provide the negative feedback that scientists use to explain the existence of complex life on Earth for 550 million years. The planet heats and cools naturally and our gasses are the thermostat. Check the web site of the Danish National Space Center. Keeping in mind that windmills are hazardous to birds, be wary of the unintended consequences of believing and contributing to the all-knowing environmental lobby groups.
Water vapour is the most important green house gas followed by methane. The third important greenhouse gas is CO2, and it does not correlate well with global warming or cooling either; in fact, CO2 in the atmosphere trails warming which is clear natural evidence for its well-studied inverse solubility in water: CO2 dissolves in cold water and bubbles out of warm water. The equilibrium in seawater is very high, making seawater a great ‘sink’; CO2 is 34 times more soluble in water than air is soluble in water.
Correlation is not causation to be sure. The causation has been studied, however, and while the radiation from the sun varies only in the fourth decimal place, the magnetism is awesome.
Using a box of air in a Copenhagen lab, physicists traced the growth of clusters of molecules of the kind that build cloud condensation nuclei. These are specks of sulphuric acid on which cloud droplets form. High-energy particles driven through the laboratory ceiling by exploded stars far away in the Galaxy – the cosmic rays – liberate electrons in the air, which help the molecular clusters to form much faster than climate scientists have modeled in the atmosphere. That may explain the link between cosmic rays, cloudiness and climate change.
As I understand it, the hypothesis of the Danish National Space Center goes as follows:
Quiet sun → reduced magnetic and thermal flux = reduced solar wind → geomagnetic shield drops → galactic cosmic ray flux → more low-level clouds and more snow → more albedo effect (more heat reflected) → colder climate
Active sun → enhanced magnetic and thermal flux = solar wind → geomagnetic shield response → less low-level clouds → less albedo (less heat reflected) → warmer climate
That is how the bulk of climate change might work, coupled with (modulated by) sunspot peak frequency there are cycles of global warming and cooling like waves in the ocean. When the waves are closely spaced, the planets warm; when the waves are spaced farther apart, the planets cool.
The ultimate cause of the solar magnetic cycle may be cyclicity in the Sun-Jupiter centre of gravity. We await more on that. In addition, although the post 60s warming period is over, it has allowed the principal green house gas, water vapour, to kick in with humidity, clouds, rain and snow depending on where you live to provide the negative feedback that scientists use to explain the existence of complex life on Earth for 550 million years. The planet heats and cools naturally and our gasses are the thermostat.
Check the web site of the Danish National Space Center.

]]> By: McKillop http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-486 McKillop Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:13:16 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-486 Please see: nzclimatescience.net - SUPPORT FOR CALL FOR REVIEW OF UN IPCC Please see:
nzclimatescience.net – SUPPORT FOR CALL FOR REVIEW OF UN IPCC

]]> By: Craig Miller http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-485 Craig Miller Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:40:04 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-485 Good luck with that campaign. I think that boat has sailed. I intentionally use multiple descriptives such as "contrarians," "skeptics" and "deniers." If you break out the polling you can see that there are shades of disbelief. Some people accept some of the science but not all of it. Unless their positions are driven by personal economic gain, I don't presume that even those who seem firm in their positions couldn't be persuaded by a careful examination of the science. The problem is that most people don't have time for that, so they take their cues from talk radio hosts or other opinion leaders who likely do have economic or political motives. Good luck with that campaign. I think that boat has sailed. I intentionally use multiple descriptives such as “contrarians,” “skeptics” and “deniers.” If you break out the polling you can see that there are shades of disbelief. Some people accept some of the science but not all of it.
Unless their positions are driven by personal economic gain, I don’t presume that even those who seem firm in their positions couldn’t be persuaded by a careful examination of the science. The problem is that most people don’t have time for that, so they take their cues from talk radio hosts or other opinion leaders who likely do have economic or political motives.

]]> By: Anna Haynes http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-484 Anna Haynes Thu, 01 Jan 2009 08:04:09 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-484 PLEASE stop calling them “skeptics” http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/10/media-enable-denier-spin-3-please-stop-calling-them-skeptics/ (from Joe Romm) PLEASE stop calling them “skeptics”
http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/10/media-enable-denier-spin-3-please-stop-calling-them-skeptics/
(from Joe Romm)

]]> By: Dan http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/comment-page-1/#comment-481 Dan Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:56:54 +0000 http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2008/12/31/global-warming-a-tough-sell-this-winter/#comment-481 This might help. Look up the defintion of "global". Then look up the definitions of "climate" and "weather". This might help. Look up the defintion of “global”. Then look up the definitions of “climate” and “weather”.

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